Branding vs. Marketing

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By Sarah Santacroce and Humane Marketer. Discovered by Player FM and our community — copyright is owned by the publisher, not Player FM, and audio is streamed directly from their servers. Hit the Subscribe button to track updates in Player FM, or paste the feed URL into other podcast apps.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Product of the 7Ps of Humane Marketing.

Today I'm speaking to an online bestie based in Norway. Solveig Petch [she/her] who goes by Petchy is a brand strategist and designer for values-driven business owners who want to build brands their way; without compromising their integrity or resorting to predatory business tactics. She believes that building an impactful and profitable brand can be done without screwing people over or working yourself into a pulp.

From her home office in rural Norway, Petchy crafts strategic brand identities for clients all over the world. She’s passionate about helping business owners discover and define their brands’ unique purpose and personality, find the confidence to own their sh*t — and tap into their uniqueness to spark meaningful connections and attract more of those omg, yes! clients.

She is also the creator of the Brand it!™ framework, and host of the Brand it! with Petchy podcast.

In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...

  • Personal branding vs. branding: what's the difference
  • Branding vs marketing: what's the difference there?
  • Pros and cons of using our name in our brand
  • Alternatives if we're not branding our name?
  • What if you have outgrown your current brand?
  • Branding architecture
  • What's the future of branding?
  • And so much more

Solveig’s Resources

Solveig's Website

Brand it! with Petchy Podcast

Mini Email Course

Brand Archetype - A Quick Guide

Connect with Solveig on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Instagram

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah’s One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com

Thanks for listening!

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There’s no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I’d love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don’t forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hey pet so good to hang out with you today.

Petchy: Hello, Sarah. And likewise, thank you so much for inviting me.

Sarah: Oh yeah. When I looked at, , you know, our conversations, me being on, your podcast and doing some other things together, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have PE on the podcast already and I realized I hadn't.

So I'm [00:05:00] so glad we get this chance now to, yeah. To talk about branding. , I think I did tell you that we're featuring this episode under the P of product of the humane marketing podcast or humane marketing mandala. And so, yeah, it's this idea of creating a product and what we kind of discussed before, , recording is this idea of, well, how, how does branding fit into us being the product?

Maybe a lot of entrepreneurs. That's what it is. We are the product, we are the brand. , and so, yeah, that's what we wanna talk about today. So maybe just kind of, yeah, take us right in there. I don't do long introductions. I kind of already introduced you in the, in the intro. So just take us into this concept of branding that quite honestly, I think you know this, and, and I know it, it's a scary thing sometimes for entrepreneurs, this word [00:06:00] branding, it sounds so official.

And, and so, yeah. Tell us your approach to brand.

Petchy: Yeah. So, when we spoke before this, this recording session, we were chatting a little bit about, you know, why do you actually need a brand? So maybe that's a good starting point. We can look at at that and then go into what a brand is. Mm-hmm and isn't, and then we'll just take it from there.

So the thing with branding is. Some people are like, well, do I, do I really need a brand? But the thing is you already have a brand and that is whether you like it or not. So the question, I guess, is more, is it's a deliberate brand that you are actively taking control of. And that's, I think where a lot of especially smaller business owners go a bit wrong because they have a misconception in their heads about what a brand actually is.

So. Because a brand, [00:07:00] a lot of people tend to think it's just the logo, the colors and how your visual brand looks. Right. But that is really just the tip of the iceberg. And your brand is really it's. What other people think of you mm-hmm and that's something that you just cannot ever be a hundred percent in control of.

Cause you can't go into people's. Brains and dictate, you know, this is how you should feel about my brand. , so you can't control it fully, but you can try and steer people's. Views of your brand in the right direction. So a brand is what other people think of you, but branding is what you do to try and influence how people see your brand.

Yeah. Yeah. And within branding. So branding are the actual activities that you do, right. , and that can include a lot of things like positioning, messaging, your brand identity, of course. , but. Your brand [00:08:00] identity, isn't just the visual either. It's your verbal brand identities. So all of those actions that you take to try and influence people's perception of your brand, that is branding

I love that so much. So actually that cleared

Sarah: up a little bit. Yeah. That, that definition of a brand is what people think of you, , when, when not there often, right? yeah. And then, and then branding is what you do. Also, let me do the question. Well, then what's difference between branding and marketing.

Obviously we know that we overlap on certain things, but what would you say is the difference between branding and marketing?

Petchy: I, I would say that branding is more who you are and how people see you and then, or how you want people to see you. And marketing is more how you tell people about who you are, like, how do you talk about your products?

How do you talk about your brand and how do you reach [00:09:00] those people that you need to reach your ideal? Audience and those like marketing activities, I guess, is like, what do you do to get your brand out there? right.

Sarah: Okay. So there's the brand, which is again, what people think of you branding. You said it's doing the thing.

So, so because marketing, you said is then communicating, right? Yes. That would be a good word for community. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And so when, when you say branding is doing, what is the doing.

Petchy: That can look so different from brand to brand. But it's those, so it's, it's your visual identity.

It's how you speak as well. It's how you put yourself out in the world. So I think. For, for smaller business. And it's really important to re remember that your, your visual branding is actually just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole branding puzzle. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You also [00:10:00] need to, once you've established your brand's foundations and you brand core, and you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know, your values, you, you rock solid on that part.

Then you have to go out and like actively. Infuse that into every activity that you do for your brand. Right. So, and that, isn't just when you go to do your marketing, but it's also when you, , so say when you recruit people, how you build your company culture, that has to be rooted in your brand's core, but also how you treat people when they come to you with complaints, for instance, on like, so your customer service representatives, how should they.

Behave when they act on behalf of your brand. Right. What, where do you spend your money? You know, when you invest your money or buy services from, from other brands, are you conscious of where you're putting your money and whether that's aligns with your core values? [00:11:00] Because if, if there's a mismatch there.

People are going to figure it out and it's not going to be good for your brand. Let's just put it that way.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And, and thank you for those examples. , I'm currently working with the, a company for, LinkedIn profile for their executives and they did send me their branding guidelines and it's like a document with like a hundred pages or so.

And so. That shows that, , they have clear guidelines about their brand and yes, that includes visuals. But it, for example, I always ask, what kind of tone do you want your LinkedIn profile to have? And so they have examples of tone in that branding document. So that would be the difference between marketing and again, branding is it's yes, it's doing things, but it's more like guidelines for how you are then gonna market.

and that's my thinking or my understanding of it.

Petchy: Yeah. So your, your brand [00:12:00] strategy in a way is what informs every single business action that you take, right? Including marketing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. , cuz you could put it that way.

Sarah: That's good. Yeah. We often hear the term also personal branding. So where does that come in and how is that different from, you know, the branding that we're talking.

Petchy: Well, I kind of guess it's, it's in the name. There's a clue in the name, personal branding is more like how, how are you putting yourself out into the world and how are you being conscious about how you want other people to see you? But what I find is that with smaller businesses, smaller brands, where there is one person who is the main, character of the brand, I guess, or product of the brand.

As, you said earlier, I find that the. Get really blurry mm-hmm between like the personal brand and the actual brand. And to a certain extent, I think that's how it has to be for the smaller brands. If that makes

Sarah: sense. [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Because at least for my humane marketing, I always say bring more of you to your marketing because who I mainly talk to is entrepreneurs, but I even feel like the, the bigger brands.

We do have this trend of wanting to make it more personal. So it, I would say personal branding somehow even applies to bigger brands. , it is just that it's probably gonna be more worldview and value oriented than specific to just one person,

Petchy: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that. I actually, I don't think that as a solo business owner or a small business owner, that you can remove yourself a hundred percent from your brand mm-hmm.

Because with the smaller brands, you, you just, you can't rely as heavily on sheer size, you know, or your market share or, or your reputation. So that personal connection, that human to human connection becomes more important, really because you wanna build trust. [00:14:00] And that trust is much, much easier to gain for a smaller brand, if there's a personal connection, human to human.

So I guess that's a strong argument in itself. Mm-hmm um, whereas like a big household brand that everybody knows about, they probably don't need that same level of human to human connection in the, in the big scale of things, but on, on a more personal level, The human to human connection becomes important.

And that's when it's really important that, so if you, if you are a small brand now, and then you have big plans and you grow, and then you are becoming a bigger brand that human to human connection will go, it will trickle down into your employee level rather than yourself. And that's when it's important that your employees are on board with the brand values and the brand approach and like the brand personality so that they can act.

On behalf of your brand. Yeah. And create, create those connections yeah.

Sarah: For your brand. And that's [00:15:00] not easy. That's not an easy job, especially if you have like a huge brand, every, store clerk and everybody needs to be informed about those values and

Petchy: yeah. Yeah. That's where it can fall apart.

If you aren't clear on those foundations. Right. Day one. Yeah, because if you are not clear on them yourself, and then as your team grows, it's going to get more and more difficult to communicate that to your team so that they can take that and act on it. So I would say. Even, that's why it's so important, even for the smaller businesses to have a think about these things, even if it's still just the early days or even if it's still just you

Sarah: Yeah. Quotation marks for, for those who are not watching the video. yeah. Yeah. What it makes me think also obvious is, if you are just a one, person brand, , a lot of the first things you need to decide is yeah. On the [00:16:00] name of your business and on your domain name that you're gonna reserve your website.

And so there's always this question. Well, do I use my name? As my brand or as my website domain or, or do I use, you know, a name for my business and then use that as a domain name. So kind of like, what are the pros and cons of using your name or not using your name?

Petchy: Oh, well again, this is very individual.

Yeah. So I guess my. My first thing that I wanna say is you don't have to do anything if it doesn't feel right for you. So it is not like you have to use your name to build a, like a brand centered around you as a person. And it totally depends on your circumstances. , for some people it really makes sense to use their name and they want to use their name, that comfortable using the name and putting it out there.

Maybe they know that, okay, I want this business to be centered around me. Maybe it's not even going [00:17:00] to grow. And that in that case, it just really makes sense to, , to use your name as a brand name and build on that personal brand. But there are businesses who are run by just one person who also like, can absolutely have a very different brand name.

Right. So I think. I think it's very personal decision to make, and it depends a little bit on what, what is it that you're putting out there? So for a, for a coach, for instance, or someone who works with a very sort of tight closed, personal connection with their clients, it maybe makes a lot more sense to be using your name.

Whereas if you are selling a product or if you're selling or a program, a one to, oh, a program or one to many mm-hmm , , Service then it makes more sense to have a, a brand name that's separate from your own name. Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to [00:18:00] remove yourself completely from your brand. , So I, I guess what I'm saying is it, it kind of gets down to brand architecture and how you want to build the layers of your brand as the founder.

Sarah: Mm we'll get to that term in a minute. Cuz I think there's more to UN unpack under the term brand architecture. Now we're getting like super into it. , now we're gonna get geeky. exactly super geeky. , Yeah. What, what came up for me also is, you know, kind of my evolution of, of brand. So I have my website, Sarah and acro, and that's where I built my LinkedIn consulting, brand over the last decade or so.

And so that was. , very clear to me, this is me as the LinkedIn consultant and, and, and I never, obviously you can't use LinkedIn in the brand, so that was already kind of a limitation, I guess, in that yeah. Needs to be taken into consideration. You can't just make up a brand name using, you know, [00:19:00] existing terms and, and names.

, and then. You know, started thinking about the gentle business revolution and, and gentle marketing and, and, you know, the story behind that trademark mess. And so that's kind of another thing that I guess if you go with a brand name, then you are really, and I did not realize that I just went, you know, very naively into that thing.

, but you do get into other territories where all of a sudden. It's not just your name anymore. , you're claiming a brand name and, you know, the story that happened to me, , you know, it published a book two weeks after I got a seasoned desist letter that I cannot use that name, gentle marketing anymore.

So in a way it does feel like there's more considerations to think of when you are using you. Words and make up your own brand name rather than just using your cause. Nobody can, [00:20:00] you know, kind of season desist your name. That's your name? You are. No,

Petchy: nobody can, nobody can go after you using your name. So there's safety in that, of course as well.

Yeah. But I guess if you are a person who isn't super keen on being the face of your brand, Then one way to do that is to focus, your efforts more on like branding your products or your services, or maybe your signature method, finding like a brand name for those. And then. Still remaining in the background or the foreground, however much you're comfortable with as the creator of

So, , for instance, I have a, a framework that I've, , spent probably 20 something years developing. , and I call it the branded framework and I then can say that I'm, I'm the creator of that framework, right? Yeah. So if that, at some point, if that grows bigger than me, Yeah. I don't know if it will. , , I don't have any fixed plans for that, but if it does, if it, if it blows up and it gets bigger than me, [00:21:00] then I can still be, I can still, say that I'm the creator of that framework.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would then possibly lead with my framework rather than leading with my name. Exactly. You would take a new domain name. What's right. Yeah, what's right. And what's wrong.

Sarah: Is no, it's very individual and it's a personal choice. It's personal choice. And it comes back to your definition of success.

And yet it's not an easy choice because so often we hear either one or the other being the right. Decision, right. Oh, you gotta scale and go big and you want to exit, you know, your, your business at one point and that's why you need a brand or on the other hand is no, you want that personal connection.

And that's why you need to use your name as your brand. Well, the pens, you know? Yeah. You need to actually think about how you see this business. Do you want to grow it? And if you don't, well, you're perfectly fine using your name and, and, and for me, even if you do. [00:22:00] You

Petchy: can still use your, your name. Exactly.

You see? I mean like, yeah, you see big brand names based off a real person's name all the time where you know that they are this huge brand with lots of employees, worldwide presence. And it's still exactly person's name at the top. There's no

Sarah: correct answer. Really? No. And I

Petchy: think that's something that's one of my pet peeves in the business world.

This whole notion that my way is the right way. And then you have three or four different people claiming that it's their way. That it's the only way. Right. And really there is no right or wrong answer. It's only down to you what path you like to take. Yeah. And, and you can course correct along the way.

So if you, if you start out using your own name for instance, and you feel like that's not. It's not quite right. Then you can, you can twist it and you can take a different turn.

Sarah: Yeah. You know, what I noticed do Petchi is it's, it's easier for people to [00:23:00] be told this is the right way, right? They're like, oh, this is the easy answer that I, you know, I'm looking for.

And so. When we tell 'em, oh, it's up to you, you know, you have the choice then they're like, oh, I don't know. And then, so really what we're saying here is like, if you feel like you are don't know which way to go, well, sit with it, then actually do the work and figure out, well, what. Do I want to do with this business?

Do I want to grow it? What's my definition of success, all these questions that take some deeper work, because yeah, the gurus day will tell you, it's only this way or it's only that way. Mm.

Petchy: And of course it's easy. It's I mean, I like the idea of just being able to take someone else's approach and make it work for me outta the box.

But I think in reality, That works for very few people. Yeah. And I see it all the time when I work with my clients and the work that I do with my clients. [00:24:00] I will never design just a logo for a client for instance, and that BEC that's because I, I need them to do that deep in a work first, so I can do a, a good job and the resistance there to actually go and do that deep work is, is present in.

90 something percent of all of my clients when they come to me and they're like, oh, I just need a logo. I just wanna want it to look good. And oh, do I really need to look into these deep questions? It's, it's hard. and I'm like, well, you really do need to. And that's why the process takes longer than just like a couple of weeks to, to complete as well, because these are.

Really big, really heavy questions and they take time to process. , yeah, for,

Sarah: I really feel like we do the same groundwork because it's the same with the clients who just want marketing, you know, they just want clients. And so it's like, okay, just tell me how I need to market. Right. Do I need to be on Facebook on Instagram?

Like, no, you need to actually go into [00:25:00] these deep questions. And I feel like. That's what we have in common. You then go into branding and I go into marketing, but the deep core level, figuring out, you know, who you are and what you want that needs to come first in both cases.

Petchy: It does. Yeah. And what I will say also is after that initial period of resistance and feeling like, oh, it's too hard.

It's too big. I can't do this. Once they start to. Like find the little golden nuggets within themselves that, that they already had. Like, all of this is already, inside. You, you just need to extract them. And sometimes you just need someone to help you. like, right. , that sort your thoughts around things, but really nobody else.

But you can do the actual work of doing that in a work. And, and then. What I find is when people start to find those golden nuggets within themselves and they have those aha moments, they emerge on the other side [00:26:00] of that, really quite what feels like a bit of a Rocky road to them, I think. And they emerge with such clarity.

Mm-hmm . That it's, , it's amazing to see the transformation and how they then talk about their brand or talk about themselves as a brand differently. Yeah. Afterwards

Sarah: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like the, the labyrinths I talk about in the marketing, like we're human book, you go in you rumble, you have to ask all these deep questions, then you stand in the middle of the labyrinths you rise.

You realize how you are different, , from everybody else. And then you walk back into the world and you resonate, right? Because you are now clear and you can tell these stories that, yeah. That just resonate with people. And that's what the branding. Does you know that deep foundational branding, not the, not the logo, the logo doesn't do that.

Right. Cause there's not, yeah, not enough deep inner work. , that's amazing. [00:27:00] Yeah. I wanna, I wanna kind of come to some other questions as well. Well, the, actually that term that you mentioned, , before brand architecture. So tell us a bit more about that and the different layers of brand.

Petchy: Yeah, I'll, I'll try and, uh, make it, oh, well, simplify it a bit.

Because brand architecture can be really complex, but we can also think about it in really sort of simpler terms. So in essence, brand architecture, it's the layers of your brand. So how many levels. Does your brand have, and on the one side you have what we call a branded house. And on the other extreme, you have what you call a house of brands.

And then of course there are all sorts of hybrid models that you can adopt in the middle there. And a lot of us smaller business owners will probably find ourselves towards, leaning towards a hybrid model or, , maybe a, a [00:28:00] branded house. So somewhere towards that end of the scale. , and that's because we are naturally, we are naturally the focus of our brands, but we then might have certain product brands that then lie on the next level.

Below us like, so if you, if you place yourself as the mother brand of your brand, , Sarah is, , on the top there mm-hmm and then you have your, your method, that's kind of a subbrand to your main brand , and any other like product or services that you decide to brand separately. So it's brand architecture is more about figuring out how all of these little puzzle pieces, , fit together.

Mm. And then. You can also look at whether you want that. Do you want there to be a difference between your personal brand, , and your corporate brand because, and that goes back to what we were just talking about as well. And it's, it's really is up to you how visible you are as the brand owner. So if you're leaning more towards a [00:29:00] corporate brand, then you would perhaps not use your own name so much, but if you're leaning more towards.

A personal brand, you would lead with your name. So, or in the corporate

Sarah: brand brand, just be featured as like the founder or yeah, mm-hmm

Petchy: yeah. And I mean, you have examples of this. So you have some of the big household brands where, you have Unilever, for instance, they obviously that's the mother brand, but it's not really that visible.

When you go out and look into the world, you don't really see the mother brand as much because you see the, the sub brands, you see the product brands, right? They are the ones who take center stage. , and the reason why a lot of these like bigger brands that have a lot of different products do it that way is because it then allows them to go into the marketplace and compete.

Against itself, if you know what I mean, they can have several different products, very distinct product brands, so, and they can be competing against [00:30:00] each other. Mm-hmm

Sarah: so that would be the, the house of brands. Right. That would be the more the

Petchy: corporate model. That's more of the corporate line. So for instance, if you have a very.

A very strong, but hidden mother brand. Maybe they do lines of cleaning products. Maybe they even do like two different brands of washing powder, like detergent mm-hmm because they are structured in that way. They can do that. Like they can put the brands up to like against each other. But that's not the approach that most small business owners take.

So we are more in the, on the other end of the scale, where, where we just focus on building a, like a solid core around ourselves. And then you can decide whether you want to have a prominent role in that, or whether you wanna step back a little bit and let your approach or your signature service. If you.

Those to [00:31:00] lead instead. So it's, it's just figuring out like the prominence of the different levels as well and how it all works together. But, I dunno if I mentioned it to you, but I do have a little guide on this. Just a one page PDF that I will happily let your listeners. Have so I will send that to you.

Sarah: Oh, awesome. Sarah, I'll definitely make sure that they can download that because I think that's when it gets complex as well. As you know, we were talking before we, , recorded this idea of what, if you have outgrown your brand and now you need to rebrand and you know, all these questions. Well, what do I need to change?

How do you communicate about it? That's when it gets complex. And that's when people really need to ask for help from someone like you, because then it can quickly get in into very messy brands. Right. where it's like, yeah, I see it all the time. It's like that one times it's like that and yeah, it's just kind of gets confusing.

Petchy: It's [00:32:00] one of the scenarios that I come across. The most, actually, when I work with my clients is some, they, they will come to me. They already have a brand and they they're doing fairly well with that, but it feels like something's a little bit off. It's not feeling aligned anymore. , and maybe they feel like they've outgrown their brand, as you said.

And, and yeah, I think that's when it becomes even more important to take that step back and look at the foundations before you do anything else, because maybe that was the missing piece, right? , from the previous brand and a lot of the. I find that they don't have to throw everything out of the window and start all over a lot of the time we can take what they have and we can mold it and we can tweak it and we can turn that into the next iteration of the brand.

So it's not, it's not always necessary to go right back. Yeah. Start from scratch.

Sarah: I have a very personal question about my brand. You know, I have the humane marketing. it's more of. An idea as a brand, because my company is not [00:33:00] called humane marketing. , the website is humane marketing, and then I have marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human.

Those are the, the books. So would you say marketing, like we're human and selling? Like we're human are kind of like the subbrands, even though I'm, I'm not really branding them, but I'm often talking about. This idea of selling or marketing or now LinkedIn, like we're human. Is this kind of a sub-brand even though I'm not really, you know, branding it per se.

Mm. Yeah, I

Petchy: think it's kind of just naturally falling into the category of sub-brand. Okay. , maybe you're just doing it sub subconsciously , but, and it feels like natural, but also I feel like you are a whole approach. The whole sort of human centered way of doing things has potential to become a brand.

Of its own something bigger than you eventually. Yeah. Like if, if that is the direction that you wanted to take it,

Sarah: That's so humane marketing. That's kind of the reason why I, you know, didn't [00:34:00] put it under my name. I was like, well, if I'm. Wanting to create a movement, then it's not all about me. It's about the movement and the idea behind the movement.

And, and so that's why I went with humane marketing and the trademark and, and all of that. So, so yeah, I, I was just wondering, you know, what is this. A subbrand in a small business example. So for you branded, you said, that could become a its own subbrand eventually. So, so I'm thinking maybe marketing, like we're human is another example.

Petchy: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's, that's exactly how it would work. And then, , for now maybe you are more prominent than humane marketing. Yeah. But at some point you might find. That the roles change and that's okay. And you can then make a conscious decision of whether you want to lead with yourself or whether you want to lead with your approach or your method or your movement.

Yeah. , but also it kind of gives you a lot of [00:35:00] cred too. If this thing grows bigger than you. If you managed to create this worldwide movement. Then imagine what effect that has on your personal brand to be able to go out there and say with confidence and pride that, hi, I'm Sarah, I'm the creator of this movement, you know, I'm the founder of this.

Yeah. So they all, they're all connected.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see how the personal brand plays into that now. Yeah. There's there's one, kind of final topic I wanted to touch upon. And that's this idea of the future, you know, what does the future of branding looks like? Which direction are we going in in terms of branding?

Petchy: Oh, well, I, I don't think I have a crystal ball , but I, the way I see it and the way I'm experiencing it as, as a part. Like the business world right now [00:36:00] is that those personal connections are going to become even more important for, for brands as we move forward, because people are craving that human connection.

People are craving to be seen, to be heard, to be taken seriously by a human and not, and to not just feel like there are a number in a sales spreadsheet or. Or in a CRM system. Mm-hmm I know for myself that makes me feel very, it feels like it's dehumanizing somehow. So yeah, those genuine, genuine connections, and not trying to present yourself as anything other than what you are not trying to con people just, just.

Don't be an asshole. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear on your yes, that's fine.

Sarah: totally fine. Yeah. And it's funny. Cuz just yesterday I, I got on a call from, with a new circle member, a human [00:37:00] humane marketing circle and I offered these coffee chats and. The guy actually said, you know, I really appreciate having this chat with you.

I was really impressed by this human connection, cuz usually in these memberships, we don't get that. And, and that proves what you just said. It's like, Yeah, we're, we're used to just being a number, right. We're used to kind of just paying monthly subscriptions, but not actually counting as, as human beings or not having that connection with the, you know, the, the other people or the founders.

So I think, I think you're totally right. What about in terms of go ahead. No, sorry.

Petchy: I was just saying, I think we're moving from the sort of spray and pray approach to a more. Focused, deeper, but narrower kind of connection. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. The, which also maybe means, you know, smaller businesses, not giant, [00:38:00] you know, kingdoms of, of businesses.

Like some of the big names had in the past, You know, smaller communities, but very meaningful communities. I, I think that's where we're, we're heading. Yeah.

Petchy: I think there will still, we will still see those big brands as well, because they are so established by now that they, they just own a certain market share by now.

But. When you see a lot of smaller brands emerging, it's, it's a lot easier for people to find a brand that really resonates with them, you know, that they really feel onboard with this brand's vision and what they're trying to do and the values and what they stand for. And that connection of feeling like you are a part of something.

Yeah. And not just a, an invisible, insignificant little, little puzzle piece. Mm-hmm I think that becomes more important for. People wanna feel like they're making a difference or that they're doing good. Right. And, , whatever that [00:39:00] might be. So, I mean, I will find a lot of brands out there that stand for the complete opposite of what I stand for.

But there will be people who resonate with them too. Yeah. And then I can go and find the brand that resonates with me. Mm-hmm and then that, that's my way of being able to influence the world in that direction. I wanna see it is choosing what brands I support and what brands I buy from. Right.

Sarah: What about visually?

, I remember you and I talked about the visual aspect also of future design. , what's your, future vision.

Petchy: Ah, this is a big question as well. , there's this term that I've seen, going round the block, lately and it's de branding Okay. so the, some of the like bigger, more established brands have ditched, slightly complex logos and gone back to basics with just the, the sort of flat logos, very simple like logo types.

, and I've seen. Some like [00:40:00] controversy around it as well. And like, people are like, oh, what do you think of this before and after? And you have a lot of designers, especially the younger designers going, oh, why are they doing that? Now? They don't look like, you know, they are not distinct anymore. They just look like one of many.

And for me, I'm classically trained. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'm gonna age myself enough for saying this, but I'm trained the old school way to. To develop visual identities. And especially if we talk about the logo, that it should be able to work in its simplest form. Right. And then, so that was, that was the initial approach.

And then like maybe in the, the old days, you didn't have all of the, digital channels that we have now in all of the different reproduction methods for. Digital print and all of that. And so your logo had to be simple, right? It had to communicate in a, in a really simple, way and be really distinct, , just in one color and just flat.

[00:41:00] So that's where like I come from and then you can add things to it. And I think with the, with technology, just moving so fast, we were able to do so many things to these logo. So easily, we could just like add a drop shadow, or we could add a gradient or we could make it look fancy or we could animate logos and and somewhere in that, I think we lost the simplicity.

That's really powerful. Mm-hmm because we just started adding things because we could . Right. , and the way I see it now is more brands are returning to. The basics, because even though we have now, all of these options are how to, how to place our logo. And really, we aren't limited to anything, but it's, it's just going back to the basics and

Sarah: seems, seems to be a movement kind of everywhere.

Right. And it's, it's bad to me it's going in the right direction and we need to simplify everywhere, you know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And that's

Petchy: not to say that you can't start with a simple logo and add something fancy to it, but it's. Then you will always have that really solid recognizable icon that, that you can go back to.

So, okay. So all of these special effects, they're all just fashion, you know, they're all just like trends, pleading trends. So maybe one year gradient logos are all the rage. Everybody wants a gradient logo and they're like a year after. That trend is gone and it's nice then to have a, just a clean, timeless logo that you can revert back to him and then yeah, tweak it.

Sarah: I'm just also thinking, you know, about. I don't know, printing, for example, like every time you print such a complicated logo while you use more ink. Right. And, and so just sustainably thinking also it, it [00:43:00] needs to go into the direction of simplifying and going back to basics and, and yeah, to me, that seems to the right direction.

Anyway, I think we kind of got lost. Just like, yeah, everywhere. We got lost with technology and robots and chatbots and all of that. And now we just need to come back to basics and,

Petchy: and, but there's no wonder I'm, I'm an early adopter of all like kinds of technology. I love new technology. I love new gadgets.

So I get that. It's, you know, it's fun to play with. But I don't think we should lose the sight of the basics and right where we came from either. So finding a striking a balance there, I think is good. Yeah. Is the future of branding finding that sweet spot and what works for you? Mm-hmm yeah. So not necessarily looking to a different brand or other brands, like bigger brands to figure out what's right for you.

Don't don't just copy. Just. That sort of introspective mm [00:44:00] wonderful things.

Sarah: This has been really great. Thanks so much. Petchi for having this conversation and sharing so much wisdom. I always, I think for inviting me. Yeah. Thank you. I always ask one last question, , before you share where people can find you, but what are you grateful for today or this week?

Petchy: , today, well, not just today and not just this week, but just this, this year or this decade. , I'm just really grateful for living in a very safe country. I have food, I have clothes. I have a roof over my head and a wonderful family. And, that's something to be grateful for. I think in these. These times where we see what's happening around the world.

Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Happy for you. Thank you. Share with us where people can find you and, mention maybe that PDF. Do you want to just send me that or is there a link that, , I can,

Petchy: , yeah, I can send you that. Afterwards and you can put it wherever you, you. [00:45:00] Yeah. So wish, , yeah, no, the best place to go and find me and learn more about me online is my website.

You'll find everything there from like my approach, , and what I'm all about and ways to work with me and how to find me in other channels. And that's pet.co. , I also hung out on Instagram quite a lot. And on LinkedIn. But you won't probably see me pop up in your feed because the action is all in the sort of DMS and, , and that, but it's petri.co on, on Instagram as well.

If you wanna follow along there. And, , like I said, my feed is a static evergreen, nine grid. So the best way to connect with me on there is just to slide into my DMS and say, hello. .

Sarah: Wonderful. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I learned a lot. So thank you for that pet. Thanks for being here.

Petchy: Thanks for having me.[00:46:00] [00:47:00]

309 episodes