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Disabled Lives Matter Season 1, Episode 26 Co-Hosts: Nadine Vogel & Norma Stanley Guest: Francine Falk-Allen
Intro: [Music playing in background] Disabled Lives Matter... here we go!
Voiceover: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the disabled lives matter podcast with co-hosts Nadine Vogel and Norma Stanley… yay!
NORMA STANLEY: Hello everybody and i'm norma Stanley co host of disabled lives matter and our co host nadine vogel.
NORMA STANLEY: can't be here today, but I am going to be interviewing miss Francine folk Alan Allen who is an author and she has written a few books she's also a disability activist and.
NORMA STANLEY: advocate and has written a few books and I will be talking about those on the show today at three years old, she was.
NORMA STANLEY: You know contacted a polio, and the temporary lost the ability to stand and walk she's gonna share a little bit about the challenges, she shared or has experienced.
NORMA STANLEY: growing up with someone who, you know as someone who had polio and disability and actually you know overcame some of those challenges.
NORMA STANLEY: And I had a couple questions I wanted to ask you some examples in Francine and welcome to disabled lives matter which is basically more than just the show more than just a podcast we are working on it becoming a movement.
NORMA STANLEY: So. tell us a little bit about your story.
Francine Falk-Allen: Thank you, thank you norma um well I had polio, when I was three in Los Angeles, and I was hospitalized for six months at three years old, which kind of put an end to my toddler phase of life.
Francine Falk-Allen: And they told my parents, I would never walk again but.
Francine Falk-Allen: Some of the physical therapist felt that I had the potential to learn to walk so they did get me up on little crutches which I used for about three years and and wore braces and the whole thing and.
Francine Falk-Allen: Finally, was able to let go of those for a number of years and then, of course, when I got into my 20s I found that having a short.
Francine Falk-Allen: Mostly paralyzed leg was difficult, and I mean it had always been but I realized that it would be helpful to use a cane, so I started using a cane.
Francine Falk-Allen: And now that i'm in my 70s, I frequently use lofstrand crutches arm cuff crutches if I have to walk any distance so it's been a.
Francine Falk-Allen: You know, a journey of adapting and I think that that's that's true for for anyone who has a disability and also their family members it's it's a process of adapting over time.
NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely, and I can imagine as a child growing up that must have been challenged, because today we have so many instances where children with disabilities are you know bullied I was wondering if that is something that you dealt with you know, growing up.
Francine Falk-Allen: Oh yes.
Francine Falk-Allen: Yes, I was.
Francine Falk-Allen: I had there was a there was a boy in kindergarten who used to hold me up against the wall, with his big fat stomach and it was very frightening.
Francine Falk-Allen: And if there wasn't a teacher nearby he knew that he had a lot of power over me and he started calling me hop along Cassidy.
Francine Falk-Allen: That was the cowboy in the 50s that was on TV because I limped so badly and then the other kids started calling me hop along Cassidy.
Francine Falk-Allen: And they used to grab my things and run away with them, because they knew it couldn't run after them and but not everyone was like that it was there were a few kids that were mean that way and.
Francine Falk-Allen: There was the same boy actually hit me in the in the solar plexus and knocked the wind out of me at one point and.
Francine Falk-Allen: And the principal was called in on that one and he was punished because there was still corporal punishment in those days, and he never bothered me again but yeah there were incidences like that quite a bit yeah.
NORMA STANLEY: wow so How did the challenges, you had growing up like what are the things you shared in one of your books is.
NORMA STANLEY: you had some issues with driving but you were able to drive, you said you just came back with you that was that was fascinating.
NORMA STANLEY: because you know of your leg, you had a special way of driving.
Francine Falk-Allen: Yes, um I couldn't use my right leg to drive because I don't have any ankle motion and I tried using my right leg and was quite dangerous, because I was pushing from the hip I didn't really have that much control over the accelerator, so I learned to drive with my left foot.
Francine Falk-Allen: which meant that I had to.
Francine Falk-Allen: Sit kind of sideways and I would use my left foot for both the accelerator, and the brake and then, when I was in my early 40s and it's amazing to me that it took this long to get to this.
Francine Falk-Allen: But I was driving a lot, because my boyfriend who became my fiance and I eventually married him lived to 60 miles away, and it was really hard on my back at that point.
Francine Falk-Allen: So I learned that you could get a left foot accelerator, and I had one installed in my car at the time, and I have one in my current car car and oh jeez it made such a difference.
Francine Falk-Allen: It allowed me to drive without pain So yes.
NORMA STANLEY: that's interesting because I truly didn't know there was left foot accelerators so that's definitely is news, to me, I mean it makes sense because other people who have had these kind of challenges need those types of things so that's good to know.
NORMA STANLEY: um, so tell us about your book I love the title i'm no spring chicken.
NORMA STANLEY: Stories and advice from a wild handicapper in who is aging in the disabilities and again.
Francine Falk-Allen: Stars and advice from a wild handicapper on aging and disability.
Francine Falk-Allen: yeah so I felt that I had a lot to share with regard to adapting to aging.
Francine Falk-Allen: And aging with the disability so most people as they age end up having some kind of physical challenge, whether it's.
Francine Falk-Allen: You know very sore hip or bad back or needs that need replacing or whatever, and also things like.
Francine Falk-Allen: Becoming overweight that often is part of it, especially if you have difficulty walking so I felt like I had a lot of suggestions about ways to deal with it and also.
Francine Falk-Allen: Also ways for family members to adapt to the changes in people's bodies, because there is a lot of women taking care of their parents now.
Francine Falk-Allen: it's it's it's not it's very challenging to be raising kids and taking care of your parents as well.
NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely, and as I am the primary caregiver my adult daughter, who has intellectual and physical disabilities, and so you know, as I age and i'm in my early 60s that also is.
NORMA STANLEY: especially challenging, so I would love to hear what you share in your book about a whole thing about aging the some of the things that you care about in your book specifically that you could share with us.
Francine Falk-Allen: Oh gosh let's see um well, one of the things that I share, which is kind of amusing is that when people are in a wheelchair it's it's condescending to pat them on the head.
Francine Falk-Allen: And it's it's kind of natural for people to be affectionate in that way with someone that they care for but it's like it's like treating someone like a puppy so that's.
Francine Falk-Allen: that's The kind of thing that.
Francine Falk-Allen: I suggest that you don't do that my sister was in a wheelchair when she was much older and.
Francine Falk-Allen: Her husband used to pat on the head and she just hated it and i've had that happen to i've had it happen in airports, when I needed to use a wheelchair so that's something that is a very simple thing but.
Francine Falk-Allen: Another thing is to sit down at people's eye level, because if you can't stand at parties or other gatherings and have.
Francine Falk-Allen: Direct eye contact with people it's really great if they sit down next to you or if you can find a stool at a party, so that you sit up at the same height, you know that sort of thing and.
Francine Falk-Allen: I mean those are just simple physical things, but I also suggest that.
Francine Falk-Allen: For instance, it's it's really kind it brings people down to say gosh I don't know how you deal with this, I just I would feel terrible if this had happened to me.
Francine Falk-Allen: I'm mean that is not encouraging it's more encouraging to say.
Francine Falk-Allen: You know how are you doing, and you can ask people How did this happen to you, it must have been hard you want to tell me about it, because a lot of times it's it's really helpful for a person to have an opportunity to explain what happened and you deal with it.
NORMA STANLEY: You know just basic disability etiquette which a lot of people don't have.
NORMA STANLEY: yeah they haven't been exposed or been around.
NORMA STANLEY: The Community or an individual with a disability, you don't know what to do and don't know what to say, and many people are afraid they are going to say and do the wrong thing and sometimes they do.
NORMA STANLEY: I was in a store, I think I was in Virginia attending a friend a family members home coming service and I went to the store with my daughter who's in a wheelchair user and the person who is the cashier said Oh, what happened to your daughter um let's not sure what's wrong with your daughter.
Francine Falk-Allen: Oh
NORMA STANLEY: There is nothing wrong with her at all, she was born with cerebral palsy and as a result, she cannot walk but you know she could do a lot of things she cannot walk and she cannot talk, but that was part of her birth process and to she's a very happy child.
NORMA STANLEY: a young woman rather because my daughter is no longer child, but I called her a child because she's my child.
Francine Falk-Allen: yeah right.
NORMA STANLEY: yeah you do have to you have to educate people on what they do and say that makes the person who.
NORMA STANLEY: Is i'm disabled feel comfortable and and not be afraid to talk, but you don't want to invade their personal space either you know, by patting somebody on the head you don't know almost like you know, being an African American and somebody white comes up, and you know touches the braids.
NORMA STANLEY: You know if you don't do things like that. You know.
NORMA STANLEY: So it's a learning process and it's and you have to be willing to learn.
NORMA STANLEY: And you have to be willing to be open to learning new things about this Community, and this population and that's part of what we tried to do here on the disabled lives matter podcast.
NORMA STANLEY: Is share information that can you know again that people know how vital and how vocal this Community really is, and really you know they're not putting up with a lot of nonsense that we probably took a lot of back in the day.
Francine Falk-Allen: Yes, yes i'm while you're speaking I thought of a couple of other things that have happened to me i've had especially doctors, but also friends.
Francine Falk-Allen: refer to my polio leg is my bad leg.
Francine Falk-Allen: To call it that, too, when I was younger my bad leg and I realized that it's not you know it's worked really hard to accommodate me and try to keep up and it's a really good leg, so I call it my weaker leg.
Francine Falk-Allen: And it's much more accurate and uh oh i'm sorry it slipped my mind I had another thought that maybe it'll come up later sorry.
NORMA STANLEY: Well that's Okay, so you know is your book kind of humorous the title sounds like it would be a little bit funny you know no spring chicken I guess i'm aging too so it's.
NORMA STANLEY: I find the title kind of funny but you know, the point is that you have to look at our lives with a little bit of humor.
NORMA STANLEY: You know to be able to get through some of the challenges that we deal with on a daily basis that's just me, it should be, I mean.
NORMA STANLEY: Every day, is not a day of you know gloom and doom there's some amazing moments that take place in our lives as people with disabilities invisible or visible.
NORMA STANLEY: And, not to say i'm a caregiver, and so there are days, where you know with yeah I sit and cry sometimes, but there are days when I am as happy as a you know a clam because.
NORMA STANLEY: she's been a blessing to me and i've learned so much about the population and the Community and and have found that it is something that I can help through my journalism background.
NORMA STANLEY: make a difference, by just sharing stories like yours so um tell us about a little bit about your book and we felt compelled to write it.
Francine Falk-Allen: I I had I had written my first book about my my experience of polio growing up as a handicapped child and Oh, I want to say that I do use the word handicap.
Francine Falk-Allen: Somewhat briefly.
Francine Falk-Allen: I did not understand until maybe three or four years ago that the disabled Community preferred person with a disability, and I understand that and I respect it, but I have always felt like.
Francine Falk-Allen: handicap was not a bad term and that it it describes someone who needs a little bit of assistance and is able, but needs some assistance so i'm you know I use that term but.
Francine Falk-Allen: I had written my book about my my experience of being a disabled child in and and, eventually, of course, the disabled woman and the challenges that I face in and not a poster child and.
Francine Falk-Allen: I did have a lot of things that I wanted to say which my editor felt were more like self help, so I saved some material and then I magnified it and I especially talked a lot about disability travel in no spring chicken.
NORMA STANLEY: Great.
Francine Falk-Allen: Becuase I think a lot of people tend to think that you can't travel anymore, once you have a disability, you just have to adapt and there, there you have to do more, planning more advanced planning, make sure that.
Francine Falk-Allen: The place that you're going to stay has an elevator not so great to stay in bed and breakfast because they almost always have stairs unless they have a downstairs bedroom and the things like that and and planning to get a wheelchair at the airport, if you need one and.
Francine Falk-Allen: Adapting to have there's another section about adapting to assistive devices, a lot of times older people don't want to start using assistive devices like canes crutches walkers and wheelchairs and they can.
Francine Falk-Allen: scooters especially they can really assist you to have a better life, so I talked about that you know don't want to use them too soon, because you do want to keep.
Francine Falk-Allen: Exercising the muscles and using them to stand up, but when it gets to the point where you're staying home all the time it's time to look at how you could use some devices in order to get out into the world, even if it's just going to the park.
Francine Falk-Allen: Because it isn't healthy to stay home all the time.
NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely, and I take a quick break and and for commercials, but I do want to come back and talk a little bit more about the travel aspect because accessibility is important, and some of these.
NORMA STANLEY: Some of the hotels have gotten better in terms of you know cruise lines and things that are still some needs, I think that that needs to be addressed and i'd like to be able to talk to you a little bit about that.
NORMA STANLEY: Because that's something that I typically like to travel with my daughter, who is a wheelchair user, so we are going to take a quick break and come back to disabled lives matter and speaking with Francine Falk Allen.
Voiceover: And now it's time for a commercial break.
[COMMERCIAL] Hi, I'm here to talk to you about springboards. 2021, 7th annual disability connect forum, save the date. It's happening Tuesday, September 14 via live stream, you know, we tag the phrase, quote unquote, We Are Better Together. Why? Because together we can achieve change, especially since this forum focuses on the intersectionality persons with disabilities. The lgbtqa+ community and Veterans, the major issues impacting these constituents and more So join us for the conversation again, the 2021 disability connect Forum livestream, Tuesday, September 14th, to learn more. Purchase a ticket and register visit w-w-w consult springboard.com. Front slash 2021 - disability - connect Front / hashtag. Welcome. Can't wait to see you there.
Voiceover: And now back to our show.
NORMA STANLEY: And we're back speaking with miss Francine Falk Allen and i'm normally Stanley and our co host nadine vogel couldn't make it today, but we are having a wonderful conversation.
NORMA STANLEY: About Francine's work as an author and as an advocate for the disability community and she was just talking a little bit about our.
NORMA STANLEY: A travel at people with disabilities and traveling and I would that's something that's near and dear to my heart.
NORMA STANLEY: I love to travel and I love to take my daughter, who is a wheelchair user with me and I know i'm one time we took cruise and we're getting off at the Bahamas and.
NORMA STANLEY: The way they had to get off of that ramp was kind of scary because I mean you know it has some one in the front and back and i'm walking backwards on a this really high thing.
NORMA STANLEY: And I said Oh, my goodness that was that was a little scary and then other times when they could not let her get on to we were going to an island, and the water was very choppy and.
NORMA STANLEY: They basically said I don't think it's a good idea for her to come off, and I said that's okay you don't have to tell me twice that's Okay, it looks like to me I'll just stay on the boat on the ship but there's so much when we travel like I was just in Las Vegas in May, and they were just opening up and I had my daughter with me and.
NORMA STANLEY: I love to walk and i'm always pushing Sierra in her chair and there was, you know that I don't know if you've been to Las Vegas.
NORMA STANLEY: You get to a certain point where you have to take you know either an elevator the steps, or you know.
NORMA STANLEY: elevator or the steps or an escalator.
NORMA STANLEY: but the elevator wasn't working to get to the other side.
Francine Falk-Allen: Oh. NORMA STANLEY: So i'm had to turn around and go the other way and I was kind of disappointed, because you know something I won't see on the other side and there was no way to get up there, or over there and I said I thought you guys.
NORMA STANLEY: were supposed to be open.
NORMA STANLEY: You know how to do not have the elevated open there's a lot of seniors.
NORMA STANLEY: that travel to Las Vegas.
Francine Falk-Allen: Yes.
NORMA STANLEY: in wheelchairs and and scooters and anything else and you know and i'm sure they're headed to the same situation.
NORMA STANLEY: And so those kind of things cities, need to be paying attention to the accessibility in every way, shape or form and not enough people paying attention, I think, to the needs of people with disabilities who, like to travel and not just travel, but.
NORMA STANLEY: You know in grocery stores and things like that there's so many issues and there is so much I could talk about but go ahead.
NORMA STANLEY: share what your perspective is on that.
Francine Falk-Allen: I, I find that the most important thing to do when you're planning a trip, if you have a disability is to call ahead and find out what's going on.
Francine Falk-Allen: Because one of the biggest questions for me is is there an elevator and.
Francine Falk-Allen: You know if we're going to be upstairs and I also have usually call several times and make sure that I get a room that's not too far down the hall, because I can walk.
Francine Falk-Allen: But I can't walk long distances very easily, I have to use my crutches so if if we're somewhere near the elevator then i'm able to go down to a lobby if that's where the breakfast is and I don't necessarily have to take my scooter.
Francine Falk-Allen: But yes, I mean uh it's unrealistic to plan a trip to a place where there are lots of hills, for instance, especially if someone's going to be pushing wheelchair but.
Francine Falk-Allen: Even as a person who uses crutches i'm certainly not going to go to positano Italy or to Portugal, where there are tons and tons of stairs.
Francine Falk-Allen: And that's just an unrealistic thing, but there are cities like Las Vegas is pretty flat so that tends to be a good place if you have a scooter or you know some way to get from one place to another, but I think that.
Francine Falk-Allen: Knowing the terrain, of the place that you're going to go is is really a big deal I have questions that I always ask you know, one of one of them is is there an elevator I also.
Francine Falk-Allen: Usually will always try to make sure that there is a restaurant on site or right next door, so that I don't have to go three blocks to get breakfast because, for some people, that would be a nice walk, but for me it's a problem.
Francine Falk-Allen: So you have to find out about those things, and I find that cities tend to be an easy place to go, because you can get.
Francine Falk-Allen: An uber or lyft or a taxi to get from one place to another fairly easily it's not so easy getting on and off buses, but that also.
Francine Falk-Allen: begs the question of how much money you have so it's better to take fewer trips save up some money and take fewer trips that you're prepared for financially then to take a lot of.
Francine Falk-Allen: A lot of TRIPS where you have not been accommodated where you know you have to end up walking too far and that sort of thing.
NORMA STANLEY: And that's one of the things I really want to go to Italy.
NORMA STANLEY: And I wouldn't want to take my daughter, I want to go, you know, and those are such the Old Cities and they can't accommodate her wheelchair, you know a lot of those places have a lot of these every narrow streets and.
NORMA STANLEY: cobblestone streets and lot of steps to see things, and so I had to do some research before I take a trip the trip but i'm sure there's some ways to do it, we can do, I just haven't had a chance to do the research that is definitely in the plans are.
Francine Falk-Allen: A lot of European cities, although they have cobblestones they do have sidewalks that are pretty smooth and I think that that evolved, because women wear high heels and.
Francine Falk-Allen: those cobblestones are hard to walk on with high heels although in a lot of places you go you see that they're wearing thicker heels, and you know, like anyway, you know thick soled shoes rather.
Francine Falk-Allen: than spike heels, and that sort of thing but um, but I think also it's helpful to have a scooter or a power chair, because.
NORMA STANLEY: A lot of times they can go.
Francine Falk-Allen: Over something bumpier than then it a hand push wheelchair, so that all those things to consider you can often rent a scooter at some of these places, if the person is able to use one.
NORMA STANLEY: That's a child where my daughter is.
NORMA STANLEY: not intellectually capable of doing those things.
Francine Falk-Allen: yes I understand.
NORMA STANLEY: So that's my challenge, but you know we're going to work around that i'm going to Italy. But tell us.
NORMA STANLEY: A little bit about you know.
NORMA STANLEY: Through this process for the child to and adult and dealing with going through now I mean just as you as an advocate and as just one somebody wants to share information.
NORMA STANLEY: Are you comfortable with the changes that are being made because of accessibility in terms of the ADA and in terms of things that you've seen in the course of your your life as a person who grew up with a disability and and would you like to see change that has not happened yet.
Francine Falk-Allen: I really appreciate the Ada.
Francine Falk-Allen: And it has been great to have ramps, even though i'm not in a wheelchair now I use the scooter and I often use those ramps but even as a person who needed to use a cane or crutches.
Francine Falk-Allen: ramps were really great because stairs have always been difficult for me with one leg that's pretty much paralyzed it's difficult to climb stairs.
Francine Falk-Allen: I used to be able to do the more easily now they're you know really more challenging even a high curve is challenging for me, so I really appreciate the ramps the thing I don't appreciate is the little bumps on the ramps, because I.
Francine Falk-Allen: trip over them and and most people who have disabilities are actually not in wheelchairs and so they are a trip hazard and I feel like that wasn't thought out very well one thing's thing that we've been addressing i'm on the.
Francine Falk-Allen: Accessibility Community for the city of San Raphael actually i'm an alternate member, but I always go to the meetings and we've been talking about how contractors tend to think of some is good more is better.
Francine Falk-Allen: So it's great that the bumps keep wheelchairs from going out into the street, especially if you're a blind person in a wheelchair.
Francine Falk-Allen: But um contractors often put them over huge expanses of driveway when they aren't necessary in the aren't required, but they think well i'll just do the whole thing, because then.
Francine Falk-Allen: i'll be sure and cover it and I don't know for sure what all the requirements are so i'll just put in more than what it calls for so we've been.
Francine Falk-Allen: Looking at a program to educate contractors another thing that we noticed is that when when they put a disability restroom in to.
Francine Falk-Allen: A facility a building or whatever, a lot of times they put the coat hanger up too high to reach it when you're in a wheelchair so that was another thing that we felt that they needed to be educated about that it's crazy to have.
Francine Falk-Allen: A wheelchair wheelchair accessible stall, and then the person can't reach the place to put their coat or their purse or whatever.
NORMA STANLEY: And they also be to when they do at the airports need to put an in restrooms if at all possible, which I don't know but definitely at the airports places where you know, those of us who have children who may not be baby.
NORMA STANLEY: children with disabilities, so that we don't have to put them on the floor and change them.
Francine Falk-Allen: Oh yes.
NORMA STANLEY: That's a situation that people tend not to think about you have to change this child, not a baby in your arms if she's a child or he's a child they need to be changed.
NORMA STANLEY: because they can't use the restroom by themselves.
Francine Falk-Allen: Yes.
NORMA STANLEY: and you have to put them on the floor.
Francine Falk-Allen: yeah oh that's terrible.
NORMA STANLEY: that's, what are the things that we face that people tend not to talk about but it's a situation.
Francine Falk-Allen: Sure
NORMA STANLEY: And so, I have some colleagues who are advocating for some changes at the airports, and you know these restroom airports, you know i'm assuming at airports, but hopefully we can see restrooms in a lot of places, but these airports, because when you get off a plane generally, you have to go.
Francine Falk-Allen: Actually, and i've seen changing tables inside a large disability stall from time to time but it's rare and I didn't actually realize that that was a problem that's something I wouldn't have thought of either.
NORMA STANLEY: yeah yeah so I mean what would you like to share with our listening audience about your book about the things that you have coming up just to know and how people can reach you if they have any information and any questions about learning more, about you and the work that you do.
Francine Falk-Allen: Well um I do have a section in the book that lists ten, ten tips for leading a healthy life and they're really obvious things like don't smoke cigarettes and eat a healthy diet and get a little exercise if you can be sure to.
Francine Falk-Allen: keep a social network and relax there are a lot of things like that, but it's all in one place that's the thing I like about it it's all in one place and it's just reminders and.
Francine Falk-Allen: Another thing that I talked about in the book is that it's really important to ask people what they need and.
Francine Falk-Allen: offer if you can, if you have time to offer your assistance to people that need help in your life but it's also important to keep your own life in balance and not over commit yourself, you know.
NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely.
Francine Falk-Allen: Particularly aging parents that's mostly moms because women tend to live longer, they need to know when you're coming and.
Francine Falk-Allen: it's good to have like a calendar on the wall, or something so that they know you're going to be there, Wednesday night at 630.
Francine Falk-Allen: And they don't have to worry about it because they're not necessarily going to remember, if you say well i'm coming back in a couple of days, you know that sort of thing.
Francine Falk-Allen: And it's really important to ask what the person needs, I know that that occasionally when i've been trying to get through a door with my crutches and my computer case i've had someone say you should have asked for help.
Francine Falk-Allen: And that's that's really not helpful if you just want to open the door and say here i'll get this for you, then it doesn't blame the person.
Francine Falk-Allen: We have to ask for help a lot, so we tend to save up our asks for things that we really need a lot because it's hard to keep asking and asking and asking so offering help is is really helpful but but.
Francine Falk-Allen: You know, not to the point where you detriment, you know the point of detriment, for your own life, you have to take care of yourself too.
NORMA STANLEY: I absolutely agree and as a mother of an adult daughter, like you say, we don't like asking we just do you have to do.
NORMA STANLEY: And you know, hopefully somebody will offer, but we don't sit there and wait, I was like we do we have to do and just keep it moving, but so How can people reach you and get more information about your books and products and things like that they can maybe go.
Francine Falk-Allen: Well there's two places to reach me one is at my website, which is Francine Falk dash Allen dot com and that's F-r-a-n-c-i-n-e.
Francine Falk-Allen: F-a-l-k dash A-l-l-e-n dot com and the other is on Facebook Francine Falk Allen author i'm there I'm in both places.
NORMA STANLEY: awesome awesome well Thank you so much we're at the end of the show, and I thank you so much for being a part of disabled lives matter today and you know, on behalf of nadine vogel my co host.
NORMA STANLEY: You know, she would have loved to have met you i'm sorry she's not she said she couldn't be here, but thank you for being a part of our show today and we look forward to having you back.
Francine Falk-Allen: Thank you norma it's been really fun talking to you it's great to meet you.
NORMA STANLEY: You too, you too, but we're talking again soon.
Francine Falk-Allen: Okay.
NORMA STANLEY: Have a blessed day.
Closing comment: [Music playing in background.] Thank you for listening to this week's episode of disabled lives matter. We look forward to seeing you next Thursday. Have a great week!
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