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Leadermorphosis is a podcast exploring the emerging world of self-managing teams and progressive organisations. Hosted by Lisa Gill, who was named on the Thinkers50 Radar 2020 list, each episode features a guest thought leader or practitioner offering a unique perspective on new and innovative ways of working. "Turning self-managed teams from a good idea into reality is a big challenge and Lisa Gill is leading the way in making it happen.” – Thinkers50 Leadermorphosis is powered by Tuff Lead ...
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Ep. 86 Sanjay Fernandes on Self-Organised Learning Environments in Colombia
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Since 2014, Sanjay Fernandes and his colleagues at SOLE Colombia have been teaching citizens the principles of a Self-Organised Learning Environment. He is passionate about reimagining learning and tackling issues like inequality, inspired by decades of research by Sugata Mitra which has shown that SOLEs allow children (and people in general) to le…
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Ep. 85 Bernadette Wesley on bridging inner and outer transformation
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Bernadette Wesley’s work is all about bridging the world of inner development with the world of being in an organisation together. We talk about Deliberately Developmental Organisations (DDOs); self-organisation and why changing structures is not enough; the Inner Development Goals (IDGs); and three practices that Bernadette has found particularly …
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Ep. 84 Jon Alexander on the possibility of opening up a Citizen Future
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Jon Alexander is the author of the hugely popular 2022 book ‘Citizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us’. He talks to me about the people he interviewed and the stories he collected which show how it’s possible to go from what he calls a ‘Consumer’ mindset to a ‘Citizen’ mindset – like Taiwan’s innovative approach during the COVID pand…
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Ep. 83 Imandeep Kaur on reimagining social and civic infrastructures for the challenges of the 21st century
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What would it look like to reimagine the systems of a whole city? To really involve citizens in addressing the huge challenges we face today? Imandeep Kaur reflects on what she has learned in the last ten years from being part of an ecosystem of social entrepreneurs in Birmingham who are cultivating ‘radical reimagination’. From TEDx Brum, to Impac…
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Ep. 82 Ruth, Taryn and Philippa from Mayden, a health tech company that’s Made Without Managers
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Three authors of the book ‘Made Without Managers: One Company’s Journey to New Ways of Working’ join me to talk about what they have learned at Mayden, a cloud based health tech solutions organisation in the UK. Ruth Waterfield (developer and scrum master), Taryn Burden (product owner of Mayden’s new ways of working) and Philippa Kindon (coach) sha…
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Ep. 81 Erik Korsvik Østergaard on fragmented organisations and futures literacy
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Erik is an executive advisor on transformation and the future of work, leadership, and collaboration, and the author of ‘Teal Dots in an Orange World.’ We talk about how this 'new ways of working' movement is evolving, and in particular a positive trend that Erik calls 'fragmented organisations' that's happening because it's hard to scale self-mana…
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Ep. 80 Mette Aagaard on how a public sector organisation with 8,000 employees is exploring autonomous teams
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For the past year, the Municipality of Slagelse in Denmark has been experimenting with autonomous teams. Of the 8,000 employees, some 25-30 units so far have opted in to learn how to make decisions as a team using key principles of Sociocracy. Mette Aagaard, Head of Development, shares what they have been learning and why she thinks it is the respo…
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Ep. 79 Lina Maskoliūnė on lessons from a self-managed business experiment in Lithuania
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Lina shares the story of her time at Finnish commercial real estate company Technopolis where she led the transformation of the Lithuania business unit. Inspired by Frederic Laloux's book Reinventing Organisations, she got the mandate from her boss to run her business unit of 20 people in a totally different way, with no managers. She shares the st…
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Ep. 78 Sofia Reis and Luís Alberto Simões on experiments guided by autonomy and connection at Mindera
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Sofia and Luís talk about the self-organisation journey at global software engineering company, Mindera. With 900+ employees and counting, they have evolved as a company without managers through experiments guided by questions like: Will this bring more autonomy? Is it human friendly? This has resulted in some remarkable employee-designed processes…
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Ep. 77 Aaron Dignan on using software to help scale new ways of working
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Aaron Dignan, author of Brave New Work and founder of The Ready, is back on the podcast, this time to talk about how his new software startup, Murmur, can help organisations scale new ways of working. We talk about the importance of team agreements and how to keep them alive, plus what Aaron and his colleagues have been learning from their latest e…
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Ep. 76 Ria Baeck and J.D. Nasaw on trauma informed collaboration
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Ria Baeck and J.D. Nasaw. Ria and J.D. are both coaches and facilitators who combine scientific research of trauma with embodied practices of collective intelligence and wisdom. In our conversation, we discuss questions like: what does trauma have to do with new ways of working? How can we be more conscious collaborators? What are examples of embod…
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Ep. 75 Alice Sheldon on needs understanding and the partnership paradigm
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Alice Sheldon is the author of ‘Why Weren’t We Taught This at School?’ and the founder of Needs Understanding, an approach for finding creative solutions and building relationships at home and at work. I love how Alice shares practical tools and stories to bring to life some of the principles of Nonviolent Communication. She also coaches me through…
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Ep. 74 Matt Perez on going from a fiat hierarchy to a radical company without bosses or employees
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Matt Perez realised that his successful career as a boss in a Silicon Valley tech company had made him a worse person and so he co-founded Nearsoft in 2007 to be a company that works for everyone. His recent book, Radical Companies Without Bosses or Employees, takes self-organisation one step further to include co-ownership so that people aren’t de…
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Ep. 73 Kate Beecroft on the critiques and possibilities of DAOs
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Kate Beecroft works on ecosystem and community building at Centrifuge, the decentralised asset financing protocol. She has been involved in Decentralised Autonomous Organisations (DAOs) since 2018 and brings to them her experience of self-managing organisations as the co-founder of Greaterthan and a long-time member of Enspiral. We talk about commo…
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Ep. 72 Swarnalakshmi Ravi on Inclusive Neighbourhood Children’s Parliaments
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Swarnalakshmi Ravi is the former national prime minister of India's Inclusive Neighbourhood Children's Parliament. The children’s parliament movement is an example of how simple but effective governance principles and structures can make children’s voices heard and empower them to take collective action on issues that affect their lives. Swarna sha…
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Ep. 71 Marwa Farouq on new ways of working, diversity, equity and inclusion at Teach for All
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Marwa Farouq leads the Global Operations Circle in Teach for All, which is a global network of partner organisations developing collective leadership to improve education and expand opportunity for all children. Marwa shares what she’s learned from exploring new ways of working at Teach for All, including dismantling the senior leadership team, mov…
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Ep. 70 Ravi Resck on social systems that foster win-win-win relationships
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Ravi Resck was born to hippy parents in Brazil, became a computer network engineer, and then travelled the world as a guitarist, discovering a love of facilitation and social design. Today he goes by tags like hacktivist, org designer, facilitator, and systems mapper, sharing social technologies with others in a fun and accessible way. He works as …
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Ep. 69 Jos de Blok on Buurtzorg and the virtues of humanising, not protocolising
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Jos de Blok is the founder of Buurtzorg, a home care organisation in the Netherlands with 15,000 nurses and no managers. We talk about how their decentralised, human approach has helped them during the pandemic, why he believes ‘protocolising things’ in organisations does damage, and his advice for leaders and traditional top-down organisations tha…
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Ep. 68 Michael Bungay Stanier on the value of being more coach-like
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Michael Bungay Stanier is on a mission to ‘un-weird coaching’ and make it a skill set available to anyone. His books have sold over a million copies and Michael has taught more than 200,000 people. As a big fan of his writing, I wanted to talk to him about why being more ‘coach-like’ is so valuable – both for us and for the people we work with – an…
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Ep. 67 Andy Brogan and Helen Sanderson on reinventing performance management (for real!)
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The current models for how we measure things in organisations tend to produce compliance at their best, and dysfunctions at their worst. Andy Brogan has developed an alternative tool called Confirmation Practices that he hopes could one day completely shift how we see regulation, accreditation and accountability in general. Joined by Helen Sanderso…
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Ep. 66 Margaret Heffernan on how to act our way out of the status quo trap
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Margaret Heffernan is an author, speaker, business leader and professor. She has written six books and her TED talks have been seen by more than 12 million people. We talk about the ‘status quo trap’ in organisations, myths about whistleblowers, her thoughts on self-management and learning to embrace tough questions. Finally, she shares why her mai…
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Ep. 65 Pasteur Byabeza on transitioning to self-management at Davis College
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Pasteur Byabeza is the lead link of the Student Care Circle at Davis College, a higher learning institution in Rwanda. He is one of the pioneers who has been driving the college’s transition to becoming a self-managed, Holacratic organisation. Though they are early in their journey, taking steps like disbanding the global council and replacing mana…
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Ep. 64 Bayo Akomolafe on generative incapacitation and embracing failure
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Bayo Akomolafe is a Nigerian author, professor, chief curator of The Emergence Network and is often known for his poetic and provocative take on big topics such as global crisis and social change. We talk about what he calls 'generative incapacitation' and the kind of leadership that’s needed in these times, how the Covid pandemic is disrupting our…
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Ep. 63 Jocelyn Davis on leadership as influence and group development
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“Command authority is a poor basis for life.” Jocelyn Davis is an author, speaker and the former head of R&D at global consultancy The Forum Corporation. We talk about how she weaves together the threads of leadership, Eastern philosophy and dramatic literature. Her insights on group development, leadership as influence, and ‘climate’ in teams are …
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Ep. 62 Alex Barker and Sam Conniff on what we can learn from being more pirate
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Sam Conniff and Alex Barker’s books ‘Be More Pirate’ and ‘How to Be More Pirate’ have sparked a movement of people around the world who want to shake things up, to create new business models and systems that are better for people and planet. The tagline on their website says: "Being more pirate is a shift in your mindset; a willingness to think dif…
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Ep. 61 Topi Jokinen on levelling up a construction firm with self-organisation
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Topi Jokinen is one of the founders of a small Finnish company in the construction sector called Vertia. Since 2018, Topi has been leading a transformation in the company based on the idea of self-organising cells to help it grow and develop. He is perhaps the first CEO I have met who has done this level of personal and professional development and…
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Ep. 60 Anna Thomson and David Baksh on Yoghurt Utopia and meaning at work
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Filmmakers Anna Thomson and David Baksh talk to me about Yoghurt Utopia, their documentary about a yoghurt company whose mission is to provide work and accommodation for people living with mental illness in the Catalonia region in Spain. Having spent several years with some of the workers of La Fageda and its inimitable founder, Cristobal Colon, th…
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Ep. 59 Yuji Yamada on Reinventing Organisations through a Japanese lens
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Yuji Yamada is the founder of EnFlow and is interested in exploring the differences between approaching organisational transformation from a ‘Western lens’ and a Japanese lens. We talk about teal organisations from Frederic Laloux’s book ‘Reinventing Organisations’ (which has sold 100,000 copies in Japan) and Yuji’s homegrown concept of ‘Jinen mana…
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Ep. 58 Richard D. Bartlett and Natalia Lombardo from The Hum on going from a domination to a partnership society
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Rich and Nati are the founders of collaboration consultancy The Hum and part of the Enspiral network. Between them, they have a background in activism, engineering, community organising and entrepreneurship and are well-respected thought leaders when it comes to decentralised organisations, self-managing teams and collaborative culture. We talk abo…
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Ep. 57 Nand Kishore Chaudhary from Jaipur Rugs on love, collective consciousness and self-management
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Nand Kishore Chaudhary is the remarkable founder of Jaipur Rugs, a company employing 40,000 weavers in 600 villages selling beautiful carpets in 40 countries. The artisans – most of them women in India’s “untouchable” class – are the “heroes of the business”, and self-managed principles like distributed decision making have long been a hallmark of …
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Ep. 56 Anna Elgh on self-managing teams and shifting conflicts at Svenska Retursystem
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Anna Elgh is the CEO of Svenska Retursystem, a Swedish circular economy logistics company. We talk about the transformations she has led at the company since joining in 2014, from Lean to nearly three years of moving towards self-managing teams. She shares what she has learned about transforming conflicts, distributed decision making, disbanding th…
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Ep. 55 Frederic Laloux with an invitation to reclaim integrity and aliveness
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Frederic Laloux is the author of the book 'Reinventing Organisations' and one of the leading figures in the new ways of working movement, coining the term ‘teal organisation’ which consists of three breakthroughs: self-management, wholeness, and evolutionary purpose. We talk about how we can use juicy questions to explore new frontiers of what’s po…
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Ep. 54 Bill Fischer and Simone Cicero on Haier and the entrepreneurial organisation
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Bill Fischer is a Professor of Innovation Management at IMD and Simone Cicero is the cofounder of Boundaryless and co-creator of the Platform Design Toolkit. We talk about what they have learned from years of studying and collaborating with the Chinese company Haier Group, whose Rendanheyi organisational model has been praised internationally as on…
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Ep. 53 Jabi Salcedo and Dunia Reverter on K2K’s 10 keys to becoming a self-managing organisation
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Jabi Salcedo and Dunia Reverter are coordinators at K2K Emocionando, a Spanish consultancy that has transformed more than 85 organisations from traditional to self-managing over the last two decades. We talk about the radical components of their methodology, such as removing manager roles, balancing salaries, shared decision-making and profit shari…
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Ep. 52 Jorge Silva on horizontal structures and participatory culture at 10Pines
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Jorge Silva is the co-founder of 10Pines, a self-managing software development company in Argentina. We talk about three key practices they have as a horizontal organisation, what they’re learning, and Jorge’s vision to spread this way of working in South America. How to follow Jorge: Twitter: @jor_silva Resources: A web page about 10Pines’ culture…
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Ep. 51 Lisa Gill and Mark Eddleston celebrate 50 episodes of Leadermorphosis
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Mark Eddleston, new ways of working consultant and coach and cofounder of the Reinventing Work movement, interviews Lisa Gill as they look back on 50 episodes of the Leadermorphosis podcast. Which conversations have changed their thinking? How has the podcast evolved? What is the next phase of the new ways of working movement? How to follow Mark: T…
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Ep. 50 Dr Tjanara Goreng Goreng and Robyn Katz on sacred leadership
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Dr Tjanara Goreng Goreng is a Wakka Wakka Wulli Wulli Traditional Owner from Central Queensland, Australia, and Robyn Katz is the founder of Talkpoint, which curates peer-to-peer learning experiences to humanise work. We talk about Tjanara’s PhD research which draws parallels between aboriginal culture and eldership, and Robert Kegan’s psychologica…
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Ep. 49 Peter Koenig on source, money and consciousness
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Peter Koenig has spent the last decade researching principles for how founders organise and materialise their enterprises, projects and initiatives – what he calls sourcework. We talk about the role of source and source principles and the idea of seeing organisations as energetic fields. We talk about why his work has sparked debate in “new ways of…
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Ep. 48 Luz and Edwin from Ian Martin Group on adaptability in a crisis
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Luz Iglesias, Director of Recruitment, and Edwin Jansen, Head of Corporate Development, work at Ian Martin Group, a self-managed, teal recruitment company with 400 employees across Canada and India. They share examples and stories of the initiatives, decisions and creativity that have sprung up in response to the COVID-19 pandemic without any centr…
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Ep. 47 Skeena Rathor on Extinction Rebellion, paradoxes and transformation
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Skeena Rathor, who co-leads the Vision Sensing circle in Extinction Rebellion, shares insights from inside this decentralised movement – how their Holacratic, Sociocratic structures support its collective purpose, the work they’re doing with Miki Kashtan to transform power dynamics, and why Skeena’s dream is for XR to become a touchstone for the wo…
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Ep. 46 Learnlife learners on self-determined, lifelong learning
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Devin Carberry, Director of Learning Programs, and two learners, 16-year-old Gerard Almenara, and 12-year-old Samir Shariputra Chopra, share their experiences of what it’s like to be part of Learnlife in Barcelona. Learnlife is reinventing education by creating an open ecosystem for a lifelong learning paradigm. People of all ages are supported to …
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Ep. 45 Amy Edmondson on psychological safety and the future of work
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Amy Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School and the author of “Teaming” and “The Fearless Organisation”. We talk about her journey of researching psychological safety and teaming, as well as the paper she co-wrote about self-managing organisations. Amy shares insightful and practical lessons about…
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Ep. 44 Vivek Menon on ambidextrous organisations
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Vivek Menon leads a high growth business unit at Danfoss Power Solutions called eSteering. Their purpose is to build the future steering solutions for off road vehicles. He shares how eSteering works without managers and why he thinks the future of organisations, especially large ones, is building the capacity to be ambidextrous – creating ecosyste…
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Ep. 43 Bonnitta Roy on sensemaking and open, participatory organisations
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Bonnitta Roy is an author, trainer and creator of the OPO (Open Participatory Organisation), which is a framework people are using to experiment with more collaborative ways of working. She is well-loved in the world of Agile for her approaches to complexity and thinking about human systems. Bonnitta shares examples from her work of moves we can ma…
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Ep. 42 Ved Krishna on self-management in an Indian paper factory
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Ved Krishna is Strategy Head at Yash Pakka, a compostable tableware manufacturer based in Faizabad, India that has been experimenting with organisational self-management since 1999. Ved talks with a lot of heart and honesty about his journey of taking over the family business, then firing himself as CEO and now working from a place of deeper purpos…
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Ep. 41 Michael Y. Lee on lessons from researching self-managing organisations
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Michael Y. Lee is an Assistant Professor of Organisational Behaviour at INSEAD who researches novel and innovative ways of organising. After reading the paper he co-authored with Amy Edmondson on self-managing organisations, I wanted to talk to him to get his academic perspective on this phenomena. He shares what we can learn from self-managing org…
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Ep. 40 Bryan Ungard on Decurion and Deliberately Developmental Organisations
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Bryan Ungard is the Chief Purpose Officer at Decurion. Decurion is a parent company of a number of businesses, including movie theatres, real estate and senior living, but it's less famous for what it does and more for why and how it does it (as featured in the book “An Everyone Culture”). We talk about Deliberately Developmental Organisations, Bry…
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Ep. 39 Beetroot’s founders on purpose, self-management, and shocking people with trust
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Andreas Flodström and Gustav Henman are the founders of Beetroot, a remarkable IT company set up in 2012 to create social impact in Ukraine. We talk about how culture has played an important role in their self-managed way of organising, the challenges of scaling (from 380 to 1000+ in the next four years), and the tough leadership lessons they’ve le…
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Ep. 38 Meg Lightheart on leadership, diversity and mindsets for self-management
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Meg Lightheart is a leadership and presentation coach and helps organisations become more inclusive and agile. Meg shares what she’s learned from her research, work, and her own personal experiences as a trans woman about topics like leadership, adult development, and diversity, equity and inclusion. It’s an insightful and thoughtful conversation f…
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Ep. 37 Miki Kashtan on the three shifts needed for self-managing organisations to thrive
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Miki Kashtan is an author and an international teacher and practitioner of Nonviolent Communication. In this conversation we talk about the three different places shifts need to occur in order for a self-managing human system to thrive, and how we can start to talk about needs more in order to awaken the collective responsibility of groups of peopl…
